TechFlash - Latest Comments in Guest Post: We're better than this

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

GlennKelman — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 10:41:36 -0000

How long do I have to live here before I become a Seattleite? Half of Redfin's technical team is in Silicon Valley because the company where I last worked was in Silicon Valley. If I had more friends here, we'd hire them!

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

redfinhatesseattle — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:31:14 -0000

Unbelievable. Glenn fills these blogs with propoganda and self promotion and tries to maintain that he runs a Seattle tech company. Yet he quietly houses his main development team in silicon valley. Why hasn't that been reported on? His own CTO is on record saying that there is better engineering talent in the valley. Redfin may have their hq in Seattle, but don't believe they are a Seattle tech company. Give the podium to someone who actually has confidence in the local community! Kelman uses this dribble to gain more ego-boosting PR

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

lewismcmurran — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:06:21 -0000

Wow, did this provoke some commentary. Great stuff. Glenn, the one thing I have to disagree about is the comment that "most entrepreneurs are undeserving". No, you are the ones taking risks, you are the ones who are trying to do something different (or simply just do something). So what if you get rewarded highly? You are the ones who are creating jobs and new markets that move us forward as a society. The one thing that you probably didn't notice when you first got here was the "wealth envy" in Seattle. Read some of the letters to the editor in the P-I or Times and their soundoffs. By their take the "billionaires" should pay for a new 520, house every homeless person, etc, but don't appreciate the fact that people like Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Craig McCaw and others turned Seattle from a cultural and business backwater to a real city that has much more going for it now than 20 years ago.

We need you guys and gals to keep taking risks and putting yourselves out there--and yes you will take anonymous shots from whiners.

Have to agree with glennfromsiliconvalley on that one. Seattleites are passive aggressive and have a hard time saying what's really on their minds. That is simply part of the culture here but not a good attribute that does need to be called out from time to time. Which is why the anonymous posts do have some value. People can get stuff off their chests and most folks can discern real criticism from ranting.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Inkblot — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 00:43:00 -0000

I grew up tall in a small midwestern town (350 souls) where everyone and everybody they knew also knew anything and everything about you, sometimes before you even knew or realized it for yourself. I've been in IT for close to 20 years now and I've rarely poked my head into the Seattle tech scene, though I really should more often. But truth be told, I'm just more of a loner these days, in a lot of ways, and the anonymity of the big city life, though Seattle is small town in many aspects, has been just grand over these past 14 years or so that I've resided here and that's been a hard nut to just go and give up in order to make some golden connections. I, myself, have always been a big fan of changing the station if I didn't like the music that was playing. Or, if you grew up where I did, walking across the street to take it up with the person in question directly if a problem came about that needed a resolution. The internet has connected us just in time to disconnect us in ways we never imagined possible a mere 20 years ago, but it's still the bee's honey! If I do decide to crack the shell on that nut, you'll know it...

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Anonymous Coward — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 03:46:00 -0000

Only remove ad hominem attacks that are not factual as those are unfair to the target of the criticism.

How would you respond to someone saying that you lacked Integrity?

(I personally know) Many of the people attacked on TechFlash have worked their whole life establishing their credibility and reputation and it feels like a dagger when someone you cannot rebut says something like that.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Anonymous Coward — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 03:43:00 -0000

Not only am I anonymous, but also late to the party as I am working my ass off -- geez folks -- the same people post time and time again.

I'm new to the Seattle VC scene myself and when I first starting reading comments on TechFlash I was shocked.

However I quickly came to the realization that:

1. There is probably a kernel of truth in every anonymous comment.
2. I can filter out ad hominem attacks from people who have it out for the person. People who make big things happen often grind gears and ruffle feathers.
3. I started to come back FOR the anonymous comments.

Let's say you "hid" the anonymous comments and people had to click a button to see them. What would be the first thing _you_ would do when you came to an article?

Thought so.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Sistermarykelmansez — Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:08:00 -0000

The difficulty with Kelman's comically dorky diatribe is the fact that he knows there will always be individuals who reply in the manner he whines about. People have bitched and moaned about this problem since message boards were lit up. Such activity will never cease and he knows this.

What's really happening here? Kelman seems to have dropped over the edge with the bizarre need to play nanny and, most comically, compete with the likes of Trump for airplay.

Indeed, I suspect it's only a matter of time before we see him on some pro wrestling card at The Queen. Where do you go from staring at Stahl's botox injections, eh? Dunno, but the jones to match it clearly seems to be crawling.

What's next? Redfin Bottled Water? Buying Through Glenn, The Reality Show? Kelman's Kindness Kamp?

Glenn, stay away from the blog, quit reading these boxes, quit dropping poetry to show us how intellectually filled-out you are, and sell houses. You'll have much more fun and you won't keep embarrassing yourself with the awkward and somewhat sad celeb quest.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Ross Brown — Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:24:00 -0000

Much of the root of the bashing commentary that happens is rooted in a key differential between writers on how big their playing field is. If you have the mental model that "Seattle" or even smaller, "Seattle startups" is your playing field, then you will be hyper-aggressive towards others given the limited size of competition for things of value (buzz, funding, customers, employees, etc). If you have a broader view on the size of your field of competition (US technology industry, global technology industry, Tech vs. older industry like Real Estate), then you have a tendancy to be more civil locally and more agressive on the bigger stage.

Lastly, the mode of competition differs between people. Some people argue and snipe like there is a clock and a time limit to the battle (this quarter, this year, etc) and others compete on a different set of rules, competing to create more value, innovate through conflict, etc. One thinks the game can be won and others think the game never ends.

It strikes me that most of the vitriol is from folks who think that the playfield is small and the time limit short, so they need to excoriate and drive other players from the game early through any means necessary. These people rarely last in any community or business.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

hmmm — Sat, 08 Aug 2009 04:31:00 -0000

Glenn:

I assume poster 116 falls under the Troll definition, at least by his characterization of you.

Why feed a troll?

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

GlennKelman — Sat, 08 Aug 2009 03:28:00 -0000

What I wrote about Michael Arrington was genuine. It moves me that he has flown up to Seattle to participate in our events for three years without asking for money when he makes his living by hosting events for money. And it bothers me that when a felon with a gun threatened his life, this blog said that it comes with the territory of being a journalist (unlike Michael, journalists work in highly secure buildings and rarely engage their readers). That said, I don't know any CEOs in Seattle who have so regularly and publicly disagreed with Michael about free music, creative rights, transactional revenue models, newspapers, blogs, Silicon Valley. Sometimes Michael likes the controversy, but mostly I think he is annoyed by my positions, especially on the value of newspapers, the need for TechCrunch 50 to highlight more ambitious startups and what I see as the hypocrisy of his support for free music. It is worth mentioning that he said I should contribute to his blog and not this one. If I was a kiss-ass, I might have kept my opinions to myself.

And for the last time, Redfin is not raising money from Ignition or any other venture capitalist criticized in this blog. Ignition passed on Redfin, but did so after one long, probing meeting -- in a way that didn't waste my time or humiliate me, which doesn't often happen.

It is worth noting that I have also written several essays claiming that venture capitalists are miniaturizing startups, where my main opponent in the debate was the most influential VC in the blogosphere, Fred Wilson.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

alyssa — Fri, 07 Aug 2009 05:50:00 -0000

there is a lot to agree with here, glenn. obviously, civility is better than snarking any day. but i think there are much larger issues at play than simple bad manners, and wonder if we, as a community, are ready to look at why so many people feel so angry and the need to lash out in the first place. simply "saying nice things" doesn't really further the dialog any more than saying snarky things.

but i love this as a starting point, a call to engaged in civilized dialog that actually serves a purpose.

that said, i couldn't keep it short, so wrote about it on Seattle 2.0.... http://tinyurl.com/kja4qu let's keep the dialog open.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

heyjudeseattle — Fri, 07 Aug 2009 05:03:00 -0000

Hey Glenn: Thanks for the great and honest post. I came to some of the same conclusion upon reading the comments on some TF posts, some of which amounted to hate speech in my mind. I have been surprised that the TF team left them up (and I regret not writing to say so).

I totally love Tech, and I particularly love Seattle's version of Tech, which I experience at its best at events like Ignite. On occasion, though, the level of snarkiness gets old and sometimes has me heading for the parking lot before the after-party. :) Our public posturing can feel like the kind of stuff that Icarus said to Daedulus on his way to the sun.

In the case of TF's comments, however, this feels like a technology and community moderation problem, not further evidence of our cultural decline. There's good social science research, some of it coming out of early military social networks, that you can create positive social norms with the "pseudonymity" of usernames. The same research finds that cheap anonymity quickly causes the problem we've observed. When we feel that there's a price to be paid, even to online reputation, we behave better.

In the mean time, I'll start doing my part by hitting the Report Abuse button.

All my best, Jude

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Hmmm — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:14:00 -0000

@ Keith Smith

Just pulled up the piece he did on you. I can see why it created some angst, however it is noted he tried to get you to comment for a week with no reply.

Some of the details aside it is noteworthy that a failed company under your leadership defaulted on $44 million in bank debt, :bad economy" aside.

I am sure as you raised money and rode high, the press was fun. After a fall like that it can't be fun, but it is news.

I think your post is representative of some of the other high profile people here. You want the press when things are good, not so much when they are not.

I would expect that some of the "trolls" that post are employees or partners that have been burned and choose a forum like this to vent. Human nature, but I agree if it is personal, it should go away.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Keith Smith — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:57:00 -0000

Great post Glenn. I appreciate the spirit of your message and was equally happy to enjoy the eloquence with which you presented it. Have you considered a career as a write if this whole CEO thing doesn't work out?

With that said (and at the risk of sounding like one of the "haters"), I find it highly ironic that you would post this on TechFlash of all places. John Cook made a career out of dancing on Seattle tech company graves. I get the "if it bleeds it leads" concept to sell some newspapers, but John has been crossing the line and getting personal for years. He has repeatedly posted salacious and irrelevant gossip about CEOs and leaders who tried and failed. What’s worse is that these tabloidesque write-ups are typically paraded around as legitimate journalism when in reality they are nothing more than hate mongering and gossip spreading. It would all be fine if he were running a gossip blog – but the reality is that the content that has made Cook well known doesn’t foot with the content of your post.

Is this me just being bitter about being on the wrong end of John’s “reporting” one may ask? Of course it is. I watched for years as John threw other CEOs under the bus and published needless personal details for no legitimate reason. Then when I had to temporarily file for personal bankruptcy protection earlier this year because of a purely business related matter – John had the journalistic integrity to publish those filings on TechFlash and write repeatedly about my personal details. It is noteworthy that he is the only “Journalist” who felt the need to lay bare every last bit of my personal financial history.

So kudos to Glenn for raising the point, but the reality is that the community is simply following their leader.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Brad Hefta-Gaub — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:06:00 -0000

FWIW, I think that there has been some commingling of a couple issues in this debate.

The first issue is someone posting criticism at an article, company, entrepreneur, etc. There are many cases where people have posted criticism in a direct and civil manner. Some of this criticism has come anonymously, and some has come with a name attached. I don't believe anyone has complained about this part of the dialog. If we want to pick on Glenn, you'll see that in his post and his replies to this post he has said he WELCOMES criticism. I don't know Glenn very well, but I've interacted with him enough to believe him when he says it.

The second issue is anonymous vs. attributed comments. Personally, I don't think eliminating anonymous comments is a good idea. I think I've been pretty clear about that in my responses. I understand why there is benefit in the ability for people to comment anonymously. Although I personally think that many many people on this blog abuse that privilege. That's for them to deal with for themselves when they wake up in the morning and look themselves in the mirror.

The third issue, which is at the core of Glenn's post is the general lack a civility on this Blog. It is clearly filled with a lot of Trolls (as defined by Wikipedia). My point was that if the TechFlash team wants to change this, that they will need "set the tone"... I think this can be done without censorship, but it can't be done by sitting back and ignoring the comment threads. I also don't believe that technology solutions will do much good at all in trying to curb the behavior. Only social norms can make a difference.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Brad Hefta-Gaub — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:02:00 -0000

91 Said:
>> Is a troll someone that posts
>> something you do not agree
>> with or has passion in a post
>> you do not like? Just curious.

I agree with the Wikipedia definition of a Troll. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

However, I'll give you credit for the excellent demonstration of a classic Troll technique of the "False Choice" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

As you present my options for defining a Troll, you've given me a false between two stances I've never taken.

I think you'll notice that on the occasions in which I've interacted with this Blog and/or some controversial posts, and even people like yourself who are obviously not interested in having an intelligent debate, I have attempted to get the conversation back on track -- I have no problem with people who disagree with me. In fact, I embrace a spirit dialog with disagreement. Just ask Glenn, I've disagreed with him on several occasions.

>> Censorship on an open forum,
>> very China like.

Btw, you also get credit for an excellent attempt at an association fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..., since I have never suggested that censorship on this blog would be a good thing, but you've attempted to attribute that stance to me, and paint me with the brush of the current free speech boogey-man. In fact, you'll notice in my comment above I said:

"...but getting rid of (anonymous comments) would be censorship, and I'm no fan of that."

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

BlueAcct — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:45:00 -0000

Sheesshh... you people need to relax.

All the flamers who post stupid stuff about other people, just leave a negative impression about themselves.

Don't know any of the people who get flamed. But I know if I met them, I would offer to buy them a beer.

There is nothing criminal about talking about how their company is going to save the world. I would refer you to any corporate website/blog/tweet/press release for ample examples. Such is the way of the corporate world.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Matt Bell — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:49:00 -0000

Great post and I’m glad you called out all the hater’s that seem to be lurking on this blog. The overwhelming response says it all and I’m relieved to see I’m not the only one who is tired of it. Although I think the anonymous feature should remain as an option because Seattle is a small place and it allows some folks to speak their mind who are in highly visible positions without repercussion. The challenge is for the crowd to do some self policing and make sure those anonymous comments aren’t out of spite or jealousy.

And for many of you who have commented on this blog about Glenn personally you have no idea how dedicated to Redfin and humble he is. Glenn is by far the hardest working person I know and his productivity is unparalleled. Just try working with him, or ask someone who has, keeping up is impossible. He is also the only person I know who can’t accept verbal praise without getting visibly uncomfortable and changing the subject.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Richard Luck — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:12:00 -0000

I thoroughly agree with Glenn's calls for civility - but the mechanisms being discussed to *enforce* civility (by denying, among other things, anonymity) are Orwellian in their intent.

You can not have a Free (as in 'Freedom') discussion of ideas unless you allow the worst of ideas and the most crass of voices to participate.

Once we start limiting participation to only those who have the spine to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, then we've invalidated the very nature of the conversation - which is to discuss the idea(s) presented.

I think the real underlying driver for suggesting this type of identity validation is that we (collectively) as respondents don't want to actually be forced to defend our positions from the drivel of anonymous posts. Rather than ask what that says about anonymous posts, we should be asking "What does this say about me?"

~ Richard Luck

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

John Cook — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:10:00 -0000

@96: We are trying to cover as much news as we can and we do devote ourselves to breaking stories with original content. That means sometimes we downplay press releases in order to spend time on ferreting out information that no one else has.

We do "miss" stories on occasion in part because we run out of time, or just don't believe they rise to the level of a full post.

(In the past, we've tried to accumulate some of those snippets in our Quick Hits post and we will continue to do so in the future.)

Your comparison to Brier's blog -- if I understand you correctly -- is really misguided.

You fail to include in the comparison all of the original stories we cover on TechFlash that he did not cover.

For example, today on Brier's blog he has no posts. We have four.

Yesterday, TechFlash had 16 posts. Brier's blog had one.

On Monday, we had 10 posts. Brier's blog had one.

That's the trendline we see. And it is not to say "more is better" as we know we miss stories or can't get to everything.

On most days, we feel like field surgeons doing triage trying to get to the most crucial stories and covering them in an in-depth style.

There's no conspiracy here. We just trying to get to the news we can, and bring the tech community what we think is the most compelling and interesting reporting.

If there are stories, you think we should be covering, please email me.

Thanks for reading.

John Cook

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Club Fanboy — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 08:01:00 -0000

This entire post illustrates why the Seattle "Tech Scene", "Webby 2.0", "Entreprenurial Club" is a complete Joke!!

Its rife with people that care more about ego, image, and self promotion than building actual companies.

Not to mention the wannabe investors eager to nurture the 'new entrepreneurs'. What liquidation preference is required for the - 'Sage Advice'?

Best thing about Seattle is you don't need any of it! The tech talent is amazing. Startup costs for a good idea are low....the best ideas include components that make organic growth and bootstrapping possible.

The people that know this never show up on these blogs and are not part of 'The Club'. They are happy building their companies successfully under the 'Radar'.

Techflash should limit views only to Washington State....Otherwise it will severely hamper valuations from outside investors!

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Tim Satterfield — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:51:00 -0000

Glad to see this post today! This topic is the main reason I have reduced my visits to TechFlash from daily to rarely.

Less flame baiting, more constructive conversation!

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Glenn in the Valley — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:45:00 -0000

WTF WA Wimps.....thicken your skin Seattle, check your ego at the door, view others as opportunities, not threats!

You folks in WA are so passive agressive, can't handle confrontation, are threatened by ideas that are not your own and too closed off in your circle.

The result of which detract's from so many facets of your business and life.

When you filter ideas, make decisions that are emotional rather than factual and cannot look through another set of lenses you have incorporated flaws before you even begin.

Keep Tech Flash anon, stop the BS personal attacks and have no deleted posts (except hate) or risk a huge loss on so many levels.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:17:00 -0000

I'd like to lay out a question with no pre-conceived notions. Kind of a thought experiment.

What do folks think the response would be to Glenn's post if Techflash was a blog from the Valley?

I'm curious what people think.

Re: Guest Post: We're better than this

Troll — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:11:00 -0000

@Brad Hefta-Gaub

Is a troll someone that posts something you do not agree with or has passion in a post you do not like? Just curious.

Censorship on an open forum, very China like.